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Men threatened by women's decreased dependency
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:58 am    Post subject: Men threatened by women's decreased dependency Reply with quote

Stan Goff wrote:
Men who are threatened by women’s decreased dependency and increased organization often adopt an individual strategy of “overconformity,” compulsively acquiring “masculine” accoutrements, be they giant automobiles, guns, or attack-breed dogs — affecting a kind of bright-eyed homicidal aggression because they equate fear with respect.


from http://www.sandersresearch.com

Equating fear with respect!

This has ALWAYS disturbed me when authorities, bosses, or even packs of males equate FEAR with RESPECT.

Is this tendency becoming more problematic as more males are left out in the cold as more and more women become independent?

We can behold unpleasant truths without the death of a thousand qualifications.

I place this as OFF TOPIC, but the issue is related to the work-force, money-dependency, and the phenomenon of women's liberation through "careers," financial independence, etc.,

To many women, "why work?" is a simple question: "To be liberated from dependency and subjugation."

Paradoxical. The "boss" has become a more important relation than any other in Her life. What about Her dependency on the money that supposedly liberates Her?
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djswanson



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: Men threatened by women's decreased dependency Reply with quote

Broken Spirit wrote:
To many women, "why work?" is a simple question: "To be liberated from dependency and subjugation."

Paradoxical. The "boss" has become a more important relation than any other in Her life. What about Her dependency on the money that supposedly liberates Her?


Excellent point, BS. This is part of why I consider myself a radical feminist and not a liberal feminist - "liberation through wage jobs" or through earning money is not my goal. A woman who escapes "dependency" on an individual man by getting a wage slave job is, in my view, merely trading one form of "dependency" for another.

(I put the term "dependency" in quotes because I think the whole independence/dependence binary - at least when it is appplied to individuals' financial situations - is nothing but propaganda for the market culture; part of its function is to obscure and devalue our species' INTERdependence).

-DJS
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whyjob



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Divorce rates are up to. So, yeah, a guy can fear his wife will run off,too.
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antiant



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...it's amazing what dualistic thinking has done to people...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re the fear and respect shyte... I knew a guy years ago ( italian , I think he was), a mate of a mates of mine.
This guy, actually was proud of the fact that his father beat him, to make him respect him. He told, with pride, how his childish screams were heard across the neighbourhood; and how much he now ( back then) respects his father.
And he seemed to believe that.

20 years or more later, I hate to think of what sort of father this guy has become.

Apart from what I just said, I have all my life always been a person before being a female.

I have always thought that it is the person first, the gender second.. and then someone told me that I was a radical! ??

Well, to me, my point of view, is that everyone is themself first, gender comes second.

Does that seem radical? It did back in the 80's , apparently.

I don't even want to work in a wage slave situation.
Although I really need money to pay bills to survive, but everyone has to, unless they are lucky enough to find "work" that pays to do what they love.
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:40 am    Post subject: Radical vs. Liberal Reply with quote

Mistaking fear for respect seems to be the result of the patriarchal/machismo mentality.

Each day I seem to be a little more comfortable with my mental independence. The fact that people around me may say I'm "out there" doesn't bother me. I'm beginning to be much less polite, allowing myself to become angry, to point out stupidity (loudly), and to stop apologizing for being intelligent. Talk about liberation. Tell people around you what's REALLY on your mind - that's liberating.

We cannot demand respect. Some folks are just totally disrespectful, and when respect is not forthcoming from them, this does not imply we do not deserve respect. I'm plotting to get some respect, to TEACH respect.

Now THIS here is thought-provoking:

D.J. Swanson wrote:
I put the term "dependency" in quotes because I think the whole independence/dependence binary - at least when it is appplied to individuals' financial situations - is nothing but propaganda for the market culture; part of its function is to obscure and devalue our species' INTERdependence.


The anthropologists call it a multiple kinship group. We are all fundamentally connected. How else does the market culture alter our species? How are our "weaknesses," "vulnerabilities," and "biological/genetic predispositions" taken advantage of by the market culture?

The environments we exist in have produced us. Since these environments are fueled by "the power of money," we can best believe that corporate capitalism or corporate socialism amount to the same thing: organized crime, with the head crime bosses seated in positions of authority. Modern war is nothing but greedy businessmen making money. I don't see how any genuine tenderness can survive too long in such a stupid system.

The game is rigged. The dice are loaded. Qualities such as honesty are mocked by the corrupting influence of money. Money-systems have bastardized our species. Imagine how earlier "ethnic Europeans," as they were called by the Department of Corrections, be they German, Italian, Polish or what have you, felt when, arriving on the shores of post-World-War-I industrialized "Amerika," they were handled by the immigration authorities as a herd of farm animals being fed into economic machinery that counts on starving populations eager to sell themselves into servitude. American employers always want to be flooded with pools of cheap labor that is easily cowed.

Ethnic Europeans must have felt like fools who had somehow gone to great pains to deliver themselves to a slaughterhouse. Now I see the same thing happening to the new breed of "immigrants." The money-based environments we exist in eat up lives and spit them out.

People are made vulnerable within their barrios, ghettos, and Smalltown communities. I witness how a young Mexican woman can liberate herself from the baby-breeding factory by securing a job at a convenience store. She has traded in breeding for the welfare state, she has opted against being bullied by any male ... by submitting to a wealthy machismo store-owner from Asia/India who becomes her "master/father."

On a larger scale, this same process works on the society at large. People seeking freedom end up enslaved, but they keep calling it "liberation," attaching a false "dignity" to their servitude, as if wage-slavery is a solution ...

I'm no liberal either. I definitely belong in the radical camp. When I think of the brutality of business practices, where bosses prey upon the most vulnerable and needy, I see that the modern industrial-prison complex is run like a business. A few men supervise the wasting of lives in hopes of making money. The young and the vulnerable find themselves walking into traps.

We are each put in such vulnerable positions. My own mother's worst fear is of becoming a "bag lady" (a homeless woman), and - if the day came when I had to witness this - I don't think my heart could take it. I would be "fit to be tied." That my mother, now in her mid-sixties, is forced into a situation where she is abused and bullied by managers and co-workers doesn't sit very well with me either. This is the bitterness building up among disenfranchised males. It is not just the humiliation of not being able to provide for a "woman-as-life-partner." It is the heart-breaking frustration of not being able to protect our own mothers from this economy that leaves destroyed lives in its path. No amount of psychiatric medication will remove the debt she is accumulating just staying alive (and keeping a roof over her head). I feel helpless, wondering how much longer she will be able to go on like this before she "breaks down."

As a male, it is easier for me to "free fall," having faith that I will land on my feet. How many women are in the same boat as my mother - chained to serving an employer just because she is too strong-willed to appease the ego of a "male provider???"

Sorry for being so blunt, but the owners of capital seem to have the rest of us by the balls ... whether we have balls or not.

So much for woman's liberation. Rolling Eyes
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: In Gratitude to Native Women! Reply with quote

The World is indebted to Native Women, especially Iroquois Clan Mothers, plus Scandinavian, African and Suffragettes Women*, for liberating the hearts, minds & hands of Anglo women.

Quote:
We're again a force in protecting Life, taking responsibility for choosing quality of family life over population - 5 billion too many for a healthy Planet! Not one major river in US or Europe is drinkable... Women's creative peace, nurturing, healing and organizational skills, and so much more, have been the Foundation (unsung by Anglos in 2,000 yrs+) of Human Life in all Millenniums. The Earth Charter confirms that "Women's respect & equality is essential for sustainability into the 21st."


Men getting in touch with their feminine nurturing side, to rebalance technology with nurturing is also critical.

* Empowering energy also came from hosting the Ceremony in front of the Ontario County Courthouse where Susan B. Anthony was sentenced for the "crime of (women) voting." Her vision and boldness was thanks to her Suffragette friendship with the Iroquois Clan Mothers, who modeled the American Women's Movement. Jemison carried that unity energy in his blood. His ancestor 7 generations back, was abducted by Senecas, yet she felt so appreciated as an equal in their Long House village, that she refused to return and ended up marrying two Chiefs.
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antiant



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

expand wrote:
Apart from what I just said, I have all my life always been a person before being a female.

that's how i feel as well, i'm always human/person first everything else is secondary, meaningless labels that try and "define" your character in order to limit your wide array of human qualities...also to extend from that with respect to "internet identity/anonymity" it's rather nice, that someone can't "see" your gender and base certain things around that, as many people love to do, i especially hate that once someone does find out, all of sudden they "act" differently toward you, maybe i'm more aware than others, but it's a huge turn off when someone acts one way with a particular "gender" and another way for another when personally there isn't really a difference or at least there shouldn't be a difference in how one acts based on gender...also i've always took this into consideration, if someone says something to you that you know is based on gender, you just kind of sit there and ponder...would they say this to a man, if i wasn't a woman? and vice versa would they say this to a woman, if i wasn't a man? most often the answer is no, it's interesting how superficial people can act based on something as small as that and i find it rather insulting myself, disrespectful, fake (ie: two face) and a huge pet peeve of mine, i lose respect for people like that because they have lost respect for me imo

expand wrote:
I have always thought that it is the person first, the gender second.. and then someone told me that I was a radical! ??

yeah people who react in that way imo are idiots and don't fully comprehend what is going on, they also misinterpret what you are trying to convey and throw out labels such as "feminist" or "nazi feminist" etc it's somewhat of a double standard, a damned if i do damned if i don't situation...also reminds me of a rebecca west quote "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat"

i hate the term "feminist" because it's implying the wrong things and the label is meant to antagonize the situation, it's used like an ad hominem, an attack for basically saying that you are human and that you're not confined to the "traditional" roles that most people are commonly socialized to believe in, it's a bunch of bullshit really, if you're the nail that sticks out, they're going to want to bring your ass "back down to reality" because your a threat to their ideologies, their fears and so forth, you're a challenge to their belief system and most people don't like their beliefs to be challenged, especially if it's completely different, they'll throw out all kinds of labels at you, ignore the situation and not address it (which imo is worse) and a whole bunch of other things that will stray them away from the "full on" direct discussion that should and needs to be discussed

also, this alludes to the fact that there is an insecurity issue with that person, internally, it's so easy to point out and observe in people i find it astounding...those that "attack" and don't lend an ear for the most part had some situation in their life that caused them to become insecure and fearful of the situation they detest, that they overcompensate this insecurity with a sort of "strong-willed" external persona, but if you get into their head and break them down, you can pinpoint the "whys?" of their current persona and understand where all this is coming from, unfortunately they can't see this on their own sometimes or are in denial of it, hence the overcompensation or "cover-up" of a so called "broken heart" or "bitter situation"
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antiant, you have just expressed exactly what I was trying to say, thanx a lot for that! You are better with words than me. Thank you heaps.

I sort of wish that BS could understand that too.

I just get so upset when guys think girls are pains in the ass, I just want females and males to get along, and no more of girls bashing guys and vice versa. I just would like to see humans (people) not let gender issues, or religion, or whatever, just all be happy people, living together, without judging. Wow, now.. I am ..just trying too hard.
I guess we will see...
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yougetajob



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Men getting in touch with their feminine nurturing side, to rebalance technology with nurturing is also critical


I don't know if that would be a wise thing to do. I think maybe the oppposite would be better. I mean, I think a sign that a man is acting like a man should, his wife or girlfriend just naturally falls into a role that fits her perfectly.

Call me crazy guys, but I do differentiate according to a person's sex. Men and women have equal worth, but are very different, and these differences should be...not celebrated, but validated. Here is an example that I'll use to try to make my point: A while back I was walking into a building, there was a women coming from a different direction and we were about to arrive at the door at approxiametely the same time. I sped up my walk so I could get there first and hold the door open for her. As she walked through the door she appeared annoyed. Like she was saying to herself "what, does this guy think I am too weak to open the door for myself?" Of course she could have opened the door herself. That is not the point. There is something about this act, that at least to me, makes me feel like a man. It validates my being male, and I have known women who say that it makes them feel more like a woman.
We need more of this in our society, not less. We need more things that validate our sex.

I think if the general state of things is to improve, this whole feminism idea will have to be addressed. Sure there is some good that has come out of it, but I think it is outweighed by the bad.

I really think that if we as men can rediscover what it means to be a man, that women will just naturally "come along for the ride" if you will. I know that sounds extremely misogynistic but I don't mean it that way. I really sincerely belive that there is something deep inside every man, on a spiritual level, that only a man has. Somehting that women do not have nor would they want.

Even setting aside this sort of mystical thing I am referring to, there is the other question, which is when does a boy become a man?

Women have there first menstration cycle to sort of usher them in to adulthood or womenhood. Men do not have anything like this to signify there change into manhood. When does a boy become a man? I dunno. I'm 25 and I don't really feel anymore manly now then I did when I was 16.

In "Iron John", Bly talks a lot about this. He quotes a bunch of Grimm brothers fairy tales that deal with this.

I'll wrap up this disjointed post with this opinion: Feminism was forced upon us by the New World Order as a way to destabilize society, making it dysfunctional in many respects. Ironical as it sounds, I also belive pornography was part of this plan, as it has similar effects.




This is a really interesting topic to me cuz I think it is very much related to the main topic of this board, just like BS alluded to. In addition it is something that I have been interested in for a while, ever since I read "wild at heart" by john eldredge and "iron john" by robert bly (I highly recommend both these books, especially "Iron John").
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antiant wrote:
It's interesting how superficial people can act based on something as small as that and i find it rather insulting myself, disrespectful, fake (ie: two face) and a huge pet peeve of mine, i lose respect for people like that because they have lost respect for me.


I'll be the first to admit that I am utterly confused about how to interact with a personality UNTIL I know the sex. Embarassed

I know this may seem to be WRONG, but as long as I am being honest, it is ALL-TOO-RIGHT.

Yes, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. This means it should not matter what my gender, what the pigmentation of my skin (or lack of pigmentation), species, etc ...

But these things do have a way of defining us.

I can't help taking into consideration the sex of the mind-body I am communicating with; but, with just a tiny bit of psychoanalysis, we can get beyond the insecurities and potential bitterness.

Irv Thomas is inspired by Carl Jung with respect to synchronicity. I am inspired by Carl Jung's concepts of anima and animus.

The "woman-as-mate" - the Universal Woman I am looking to lay beside in the long dark night of the soul - is really within me, in my "soul." I project this onto a woman. I am no expert on sexuality, but I imagine that some of us are able to become whole outside the confines of traditional social arrangements.

I do not mean to be "two-faced," but, like yougetajob points out, males and females are very different - definitely NOT equal.

This is to be celebrated - especially if you are a male! Thank goodness there may be some intelligent life on this planet.

Sure, many women have just become men in women's clothing; but there are still nurturing, wise, Universal Women out there.

If you can't find one, then I sincerely suggest looking for Her within yourself. The best way to overcome the tensions between the sexes is to become whole and independent. Likewise, the best way to overcome insecurities about "race," "ethnicicity" and the like, is to gain self-respect and self-love - that way you are not HATING.

What do I know? I'm just making noises here. Confused
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antiant



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yougetajob wrote:

I don't know if that would be a wise thing to do. I think maybe the oppposite would be better. I mean, I think a sign that a man is acting like a man should, his wife or girlfriend just naturally falls into a role that fits her perfectly.

i think that a sign that a woman is acting a woman should, her husband or boyfriend just naturally falls into a role that fits her perfectly


reverse the situation how does that make you feel, when you look at it in reversal? what role should a woman and or man fit into?

yougetajob wrote:
Call me crazy guys, but I do differentiate according to a person's sex.


ok you're crazy, no, but seriously i think this has to do with your upbrining, socialization etc which makes you think this way and maybe you haven't thought about looking into different scenarios? different perspectives? or haven't searched within yourself to find out what manhood is and or what it is not and as BS stated you can also get in touch with your feminine side, i think human beings limit themselves within gender, if we reached beyond that, not only do you gain multiple perspectives and can look at a situation from different angles, but your better prepared and a force to be reckon with so to speak imo because you are that much more versatile, with an assortment of weaponry

yougetajob wrote:
Men and women have equal worth, but are very different, and these differences should be...not celebrated, but validated.


what do you mean by validated? validated into a "role"? i agree that men and women have equal worth and are different, but those differences shouldn't be a hinderance to how they are treated whether inferior or superior and this is a huge mistake that most people make, when NOT celebrating the differences/equality, but solidfying through validation, almost like a handout, handing out roles that each person is to play in the grand scheme of things, roles are "the caged bird" the restrictions, and limits of a human being, why add more cages onto our beings, more shackles, that don't need to be there? let us live freely, if you want to be caged and restricted and confined into gender roles so be it, but i'm too much a lover of freedom and the less restrictions the better for me, but hey some people don't like as much freedom as i do and that's ok

yougetajob wrote:
Here is an example that I'll use to try to make my point: A while back I was walking into a building, there was a women coming from a different direction and we were about to arrive at the door at approxiametely the same time. I sped up my walk so I could get there first and hold the door open for her. As she walked through the door she appeared annoyed. Like she was saying to herself "what, does this guy think I am too weak to open the door for myself?" Of course she could have opened the door herself. That is not the point. There is something about this act, that at least to me, makes me feel like a man. It validates my being male, and I have known women who say that it makes them feel more like a woman.
We need more of this in our society, not less. We need more things that validate our sex.


if opening a door validates your role as being a man, then i suggest you re-evaluate who you are beyond manhood, if that's possible...chivalry is a funny thing, it can be looked at in numerous ways, although some ways are overlooked for the more common perspective, which is "being nice" soldifying the "manly role" some other reasons, is control of the situation...by any means necessary however indirect or direct it looks via opening the door, yes this may seem funny to you at first, but think about it just for a second, would it kill you if you saw a woman walking toward a door and you didn't open it? my question for you here is, what does that do to you if you didn't open doors? how do you feel about it? does it make you any less of a man? it shouldn't imo

yougetajob wrote:
I really think that if we as men can rediscover what it means to be a man, that women will just naturally "come along for the ride" if you will. I know that sounds extremely misogynistic but I don't mean it that way.


this is very misogynisitic, i think you should reverse everything you say yougetajob and try and put yourself in other peoples shoes, it may benefit you, before you say them out loud, for example, it's almost the same as saying, i really think that if we as women can rediscover what it means to be a woman, that men will just naturally "come along for the ride" if you will....or try this one in terms of race...i really think that us white folks should incorporate our religion and our culture among these black slaves and maybe they'll just "come along for the ride" do you see how silly and almost superior-like it sounds? it's like you're trying to force/corece your own belief system with others when these so called "others" have a different belief system that you don't seem to understand or perhaps respect ie: my way or the highway

yougetajob wrote:
I really sincerely belive that there is something deep inside every man, on a spiritual level, that only a man has. Somehting that women do not have nor would they want.


and what might that be? and why do you think that this is only inclusive to men? that's really sexist in my opinion...i don't know what type of women/woman or men/man you've ran into, but fyi there are a lot of varities within genders and just as a person alone, i think you'd be amazed at some of the undiscovered wisdom, spirituality, lack there of or whatever that you would find within people, if you're willing to observe, ask questions, understand and really care to know what a person is like, again i think that if you go beyond gender and discover the versatility within, you're better equipped and you may even find out, once you get to this point that is, that it's not inclusive to just men, or just women, but it can be found within all of us, once you get rid of all these social shackles and rediscover things on your own

yougetajob wrote:
Even setting aside this sort of mystical thing I am referring to, there is the other question, which is when does a boy become a man?

honestly, why does it matter? sometimes it amazes me that people will always try and find some type of validiation for their existence, whether there is or is not an answer, even if it may or may not make sense, they take what ever answer is easier in order to somehow validate their life and i think that's the type of person you are (no offense here at all, just something i've observed from you), you need some type of purpose, some answer that will better help you cope emotionally with your circumstance or life and i'm just saying that maybe there isn't an answer, maybe we just have to leave somethings unfinished, why does everything have to be complete?

yougetajob wrote:
I also belive pornography was part of this plan, as it has similar effects.


some of the reasons why people detest pornography is for the following reasons, if you look at it beyond surface level, you'll find objectification, rape, violence amongst women and a sort of "patriarchal" world domination, that perpetuates some of the circumstances you see within pornography, however most people don't see this and or are quick to call it "feminist hippy nazi drivel" or whatever words they choose in order to ignore the real situation...many will say but these women have a choice, they CHOOSE to be in pornography, but what they don't realize is that some of these women were sexualy abused as a child, etc i'm not saying this only happens to women either, it happens to men as well, but there are a lot of factors that you don't hear about, you don't see and it's why people detest pornography, there is a fine line among healthy pornography and pornography that is destroying a culture, a gender (aggressive vs passive) and degrading a culture and so forth


two books i recommend...
1. Against Our Will: Men, Women And Rape By Susan Brownmiller
2. Transforming A Rape Culture - Buchwald, Fletcher, Roth

this will give you a few different perspectives and perhaps you can see the situation at multiple levels as oppose to the one you only see in front of your eyes, i'm not here to sway you in any way shape or form, just opening you up a bit to different facets of the situation and if you do so happen to check those out, ignore the whole "feminist" label stuff, just read it and make your own conclusions and get what you can out of it


Broken Spirit wrote:
Yes, we are spiritual beings having a human experience. This means it should not matter what my gender, what the pigmentation of my skin (or lack of pigmentation), species, etc ...
But these things do have a way of defining us.

they only define you, if you let them define you, it's really as simple as that, at least personally speaking, socially that's a whole other ball game, but don't underestimate your own personal power or who you are as a person

Broken Spirit wrote:
I do not mean to be "two-faced," but, like yougetajob points out, males and females are very different - definitely NOT equal.

yeah i agree here as i stated earlier, at one point i believed the opposite (that women and men are equal) until i was opened up a little more and read a little between the lines of what is actually being said and i'll reiterate briefly that "epiphany" if you will, men and women are different, but those differenes should not turn into a superiority/inferiority match as it often turns out, it should hault at the differences and be celebrated respectfully and it should be appreciated, this is where the point of "all men and women are created equal" i believe means, i think a lot of people get confused with these two things (i know i was at first as well) and it needs to be explained better

Broken Spirit wrote:
This is to be celebrated - especially if you are a male!


i don't get this, why especially if your a male? i think men and women are in the same boat when it comes to finding intelligent life on this planet and more specifically the people on this board want to find other human beings, in which they can discuss what's on their minds without being burned to the stake, man or woman, regardless, it's somewhat of a "blessing" to find anybody with intelligence, i have a low tolerance for stupidity myself and i can understand the frustration of not finding similar minds, that don't give me some food for thought on a daily basis, so i have to look elsewhere or sometimes within

at any rate i leave with this from the crimethINC website, which i always felt made a pretty good point, when it comes to gender:

for every girl who is tired of acting weak when she is strong, there is a boy tired of appearing strong when he feels vulnerable. for every boy who is burdened with the constant expectation of knowing everything, there is a girl tired of people not trusting her intelligence. for every girl who is tired of being called over-sensitive, there is a boy who fears to be gentle, to weep. for every boy for whom competition is the only way to prove his masculinity, there is a girl who is called unfeminine when she competes. for every girl who throws out her e-z-bake oven, there is a boy who wishes to find one. for every boy struggling not to let advertisting dictate his desires, there is a girl facing the ad industry's attacks on her self-esteem. for every girl who takes a step toward her liberation, there is a boy who finds the way to freedom a little easier."

they don't say this is a "mans world" for nothing Wink

some food for thought on my end...oh yeah and thanks expand for the complement, glad i could help you out with your words, there are times where you know what you want to say, but just can't get it out right and that can be frustrating, especially when you're a constant thinker, so i know how it feels...wow what a lengthy post that was LOL
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yougetajob



Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Posts: 672

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antiant wrote:
i think that a sign that a woman is acting a woman should, her husband or boyfriend just naturally falls into a role that fits her perfectly


reverse the situation how does that make you feel, when you look at it in reversal?


How does it make me feel? Perfectly fine. It is not about dominance or who starts acting more manly or womenly first. It doesn't really matter.


antiant wrote:
what do you mean by validated? validated into a "role"?


No, when I say validated I mean an acknowledgement by someone of the oppposite sex that you are a man, or a woman. What is so bad about that? Haven't you ever experienced this before? It feels good.


antiant wrote:
honestly, why does it matter? sometimes it amazes me that people will always try and find some type of validiation for their existence, whether there is or is not an answer, even if it may or may not make sense, they take what ever answer is easier in order to somehow validate their life and i think that's the type of person you are (no offense here at all, just something i've observed from you), you need some type of purpose, some answer that will better help you cope emotionally with your circumstance or life


Well, yes. I do look for explanations for my existence and why things are the way they are, and why I have the feelings and experiences that I have. At any given time I may think that I have discovered complete truth, then later I change my beliefs (just like I gather you do) Many times I have questioned things that I once was certain that I would never have to question. I have looked at this subject from different sides, prior to your suggestion to do so (believe it or not). But my experiences in relationships with women, as well as people that I know, has led me to my current belief on this issue.

Now, that fact that you are a woman who disagrees with my beliefs does not not affect me. I know there are many women who feel like you do.

This whole thing about "getting in touch with your feminine side" is such bullshit. We don't have "sides". I wasn't born 80% man and 20% woman. Maybe it's just the term that irks me. If it means men being not afraid to show sensitivity and other emotions that are more associated with women then that's fine, it's healthy. I just don't like the term.

I do belive that male/female relationships work better when the man takes the lead. Show me a relationship that is succesful long term where the women has assumed a role more like the usual male role and I will be very surprised.

Now you may say "why does one sex have to be dominant?"

I think it is the way God made us. I know you will disagree with me here and I know I will not be able to change your mind, at least not yet, Smile So I'm not even going to try.

Hey, If you're happy living as a sort of...androgenous feminist woman (are you offended that I called you a woman?) then that's great. You sound like maybe you have tried things the other way and where not satisified with the results. It was smart of you to change. I'm serious.

But don't disregard what I have seen and experienced.
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antiant



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 293

PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how do you know i'm a woman? lol i've never mentioned i was or wasn't Wink like i said before, i think a lot of terms get mixed up in the equation and it's hard for people to follow or understand sometimes because of that, but i know what you're saying and i wouldn't disregard it even if i didn't believe some of the stuff you did, as long as we're having civil discussion i'm ok with that whether i agree or not, that's how we learn and come to understand people...and as far as the man taking the lead perhaps like you said that's all you've seen, there are men out there that prefer a "dominant" woman, i've seen both really, it just all depends on the person and their preferences and don't get me wrong here i'm not trying to change people either, i'm merely suggesting other perspectives or discussing them, that's mostly what i do, i don't like forcing shit down people's throats

and yeah that whole getting in touch with your feminine side i see how that can irk you, it's basically terms though, it just sounds stupid almost "new age" like, if you know what i mean ie: "let's get involved with our inner child" or whatever...it's just saying what you already said, men can be sensitive without it being compared to the feminine aspect, i think it's hard to distinguish differences sometimes and so all we can do is describe by comparing and sometimes it still leaves us with a vague understanding and added confusion

yougetajob wrote:
Hey, If you're happy living as a sort of...androgenous feminist woman (are you offended that I called you a woman?) then that's great. You sound like maybe you have tried things the other way and where not satisified with the results. It was smart of you to change. I'm serious.

LMAO that made me laugh, i know what you're implying here, but i think you've got me wrong or maybe i didn't word some things right, but you don't have to worry, i'm not one of those "feminist" and like i said i look at life, my life, as a human first and all i'm sayinig for the most part is that, there are certain things that shouldn't be defined into a role or actually let me rephrase that and say some roles i enjoy, but i shouldn't get backlash for it because it's considered "traditionally" as a male role or female role, that's all my point is basically, i don't like to be limited in that respect, if i can do it, why not go for it? if i can't, then so be it, i can try, but if it's simply not possible then i'm not going to fret over it basically and others shouldn't be concerned if i do something better than them, if it's possible so to speak, we all have our strengths and weaknesses and i don't feel they're all the same and confined into gender roles to say the least, much less anything else, it varies from human to human, individual to individual...hope that cleared some things up and made some sense
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Broken Spirit



Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 1116
Location: xhentric.wordpress.com; whybother.freeboards.org

PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: The Space Between My Thoughts Reply with quote

The truth is that the female is the prototype of the human creature. All of us begin as this female prototype. While in the womb, transformation occurs. Consider the nipples that serve no purpose in males. They're from the template.

Perhaps the terminology, "feminine nurturing side," triggers homophobic fears. Tenderness and nurturing may seem soft, but just try to harm a mother's cubs. Female lions are the hunters and providers. One may say, "ah - but human beings are not animals."

Such people have lost contact with reality, for, of course we are animals!

Let's see if I can confuse myself even more than I already am. I don't have a problem with the word, "feminine," because I associate it with creativity and nurturing. In fact, since I imagine the Earth as Our Mother, I see the feminine as something awesome. I don't associate the feminine with commercial ideas: lipstick, shoes, perfume, etc.

Communication is difficult. I have to clarify that I can't speak of all men or all women.

Personally, I've had trouble in relationships. I melt into the security of sleeping beside a woman ... to the point I can be consumed. And then I get overwhelmed by this fear of being abandoned. Issues!

There is this dominance issue, and I am afraid that the desire for physical dominance (the desire to control the environment) produces a kind of competition that affects relationships between siblings, between "races," and between "sexes."

What is this energy that disrupts the natural tendency toward harmony? Brothers and sisters fight for the same reasons thugs beat down rivals. It's the same energy that motivates nations drop bombs on other nations - they seek power over their environments. We see power as something external. That's why I am so obsessed with honesty and athenticity. I really want to be empowered by something that transcends fear, because I have noticed that the desire to control is motivated by fear.

If I desire to bond with a woman, and she continously frustrates my desires, do I not become angry, ugly, bitter? Sensitive issue.

Dare we see the rascals and devils and savages and snakes we are?

Why can't we see ourselves as we are?

Nietzsche said that we write not in order to reveal, but to conceal. That's deep.

To think of the things I don't write, I won't write, I won't think. What is the space between my thoughts?

Where does that go? Does it get repressed?
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