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The current spirit of the whywork forums
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Broken Spirit



Joined: 16 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:30 pm    Post subject: The current spirit of the whywork forums Reply with quote

Is it just me, or are we at one of those crossroads here?

Maybe I ought to cool it in the Tin Foil Hat Club for awhile. I can get carried away, and there is always gortbusters for off the wall stuff or deeply philosophical stuff; and yet, it is what interests me. We have time to think about things and try to see the bigger picture beyond our personal troubles.

Maybe when we have stolen our lives back, and we have leisure, we are privy to contemplating the Great Unknown and seeking spiritual insights.

I guess I'm afraid to get down to serious work-bashing because it offends many people. Mainstream people become violently self-righteous when someone acts as though they are entitled to leisure in a world where people slave away to live indoors and eat.

I wish food and shelter were like music in the background of our lives, not things held over our heads demanding our submission.

So ... Why should I work?

Can we make up a game where someone tries to convince another person to get a job?

At gortbusters, there is a game called "Stump the Aborigine" where one tries to convince a hunter/gather to leave his life-world to enter the Industrial Civilization.

We could invent a game here where one either tries to convince someone to quit their job or to get a job ... something fun ... something experimental.

Any players want to convince me to get a job?

We could call these games "Stump the Slacker" and "Stump the Workaholic".

I'm almost serious. I guess there's just no competing with cable television and video games. Why work? Why slack off? Are "lazy" folks immoral? Are overactive folks destroying the planet?

Would lazy folks be able to stay alive in civilization without overactive folks? Is the work performed by overactive folks even necessary?

How much of what is produced is even necessary?

How have our lives gotten to be this way, where the bottom line is making a buck? This motivates people to produce crap if people will buy the crap. The crap is killing us.

I wish the site were called "why job?" since basically, just staying alive takes work. In Physics, work is defined as moving matter from one place to another. If an alien anthropologist were to observe me right now typing away at the keyboard, it would most likely consider me "working on something," and it would be right. I am working on a task, the task of communicating with some interesting creatures. It might also note that I am involved in some kind of spiritual exercise as it would observe my brainwaves pulsating.

So, maybe the game would be more about jobs than actual work, since nobody really escapes "moving matter from one place to another" unless they have servants, slaves, employees ...

Why money? There's another angle. Why do we need money? That we need money is why we need a job. We can't escape work. Life is work. We want to escape jobs. We want to escape our dependency on the money-system. Is this right? Is this the current "spirit of the forums?"
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Ergasiophobic



Joined: 10 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"We have time to think about things and try to see the bigger picture beyond our personal troubles.

Maybe when we have stolen our lives back, and we have leisure, we are privy to contemplating the Great Unknown and seeking spiritual insights."



I believe that it's our leisure (specifically, the satisfaction of our genetic drives. ie. hunger, sex, survival in general) that led to such human intelligence in the first place. (more contemplation/time for contemplation) So perhaps more leisure = more intelligence? Who has time to wonder why we're here if you're constantly in fear of not being here tomorrow? (ie. in danger of starving)

Quote:
"Would lazy folks be able to stay alive in civilization without overactive folks? Is the work performed by overactive folks even necessary?

How much of what is produced is even necessary?"


Quote:
Of necessity, by necessary consequence; by compulsion, or irresistible power; perforce.
necessities

For some, work is a consequence of fulfilling needs/desires. For some, a compulsion. And for others a bane forced upon them from an irresistable power.

Well, BS... we had our disagreements in the tinfoil hat section. And others have differing disagreements even on the subject of whywork and hence disagreements about the purpose of these forums. I've seen complaints about militance here. Different people are just on different places of the spectrum - such is life. I came here with pent-up aggression, sure; at a time when I was finally getting my own business. It almost seems hypocritical. But I settle for a "necessary evil" attitude towards working. Now, how necessary and how evil is another matter. Smile

More specifically, how much is necessary? That's the important question, yes. And I don't know the answer, but i'm positive that much, if not most of it is unecessary. The whole world can't sit on it's ass; someone must provide the food: either hunting deer or flipping burgers. But do we really need widget x?

Some widgets i'd hate to give up. The internet for instance, is one of the most amazing tools for knowledge gathering, storing and propagation. I owe much of my knowledge to it's existence. But in a different sort of world perhaps it could be irrelevant. If you're looking from the perspective of returning to the simple life, perhaps we've created a complex of unecessities feeding upon unecessities exponentially multiplying into infinity.

I'll always remember some ideas written by Alan Watts once: about a better world where people didn't work so hard. One being a machine that makes pairs of jeans for everyone, so that everyone has clothing. I think ideas like this are where we start out in making that better world. Much of it is unecessary. Probably most of it is. If only our technology worked for everyone instead of for a few.

Quote:
"Is it just me, or are we at one of those crossroads here?"


I don't know what crossroads you mean. Smile

Quote:
"So ... Why should I work?

Can we make up a game where someone tries to convince another person to get a job?"


I'm probably being way too presumptuous but in light of your previously mentioned predicament, might you need to be convinced? lol. I don't know.

Jobs may be necessary - it's up to you. For instance: I don't know if you visit the forums from your home on your own computer and internet connection, or perhaps at a public library or similar, and if you feel that it's important in your pursuit of knowledge, and worthy of the effort. But as I mentioned, I value my internet because its directly connected to my pursuit of knowledge - to work to pay my internet bill is a necessity (necessity used very loosely, of course) for me. Sure I could live without it, but the sacrifice is worth it to me. Even hunter/gatherers have to work to live, but their work doesn't seem so asinine as some of the things we do today. How necessary and how evil? That is the question.

But much of this only matters in our current effed-up world. If only it were a different world.

If it's ineffable, eff it!

I'm suspecting that my post is ineffable, but there's some devil's advocacy in there for ya to play with.

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loves bread but he does not have the capability to buy a loaf. That's the biggest joke on the duck ever. - Mitch Hedburg
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get much from the Internet. And from these conversations like this one. I learned a new word: ineffable (incapable of being expressed in words). This concept is sure to immediately start helping me cope with my seeming to be unable to get out in words what I am trying to say. I sense I am beating around the bush out of a basic fear of being despized. Over the past five years or so, I've spent many if not most my days writing or reading or viewing multimedia on the Internet. At some points I was attacked for speaking so shamelessly about how I really truly feel, rather than saying things that will grant me acceptance among YOU, my peers.

The Internet gives people even more reason to desire leisure - in order to self-educate. I know I am a contradiction in that I simultaneously want civilization to end while I also dread not having access to coffee, cigarettes, foodstores, internet access, computing equipment in general, and so many other things ...

We will die along with the cows.

Who can blame anyone for doing whatever they do? Who can blame anyone for caving in and adapting to wage-slavery for the sake of basic survival? Who can blame anyone who does not adapt to this system for the sake of their own sanity and well-being?

At the moment, I'm not interested in employment and would rather utilize agencies that can assist me in getting shelter so that I can continue to enjoy my leisure. I'm taking responsibility for my unemployable personality by living as best as I can on the fringes of this fucked up society we're in.

I don't feel guilty for not contributing anything to the most destructive society. I'm being stubborn.

You say you work so that you can have access to the Internet. Wealth is not what you own, but what you enjoy.

Do we ever allow ourselves to be completely honest with ourselves about how we feel? Do we keep some ideas and feelings to ourselves out of the fear of being criticized?

People will tell me, "This is the way it is. What makes you think you are so damn special that you can just refuse to participate?"

Do you think the fear of homelessness or starvation keeps people in line?

The cumbersome computer we call our brain is able to hold contradictory opinions.

When I mentioned crossroads, I was implying that I sense that "lazy" has become a bad word here ... I thought it was a safe place to admit those little truths, such as the basic fact that I don't really want a job.

I would rather just not participate.

Can anyone convince me to get a job?

I am curious to see how people might go about giving me an answer to the question, "Why Work?"

Why work? Why live? Why think?

I have much respect for Arthur Schopenhauer as he chose to live on an inheritance rather than take over his father's business when his father died.

I know why people work - to get that money, to get the things they desire. I guess I don't desire that crap enough to sell my soul to any employer.

I've gone and over-educated myself, making myself unfit for wage-slavery. I defy one and all.

People can handle seeing wealthy people enjoying leisure, but they tend to resent people asking for assistance who are not willing to "keep their noses to the grindstone."

Don't mind me. I'm experimenting with radical honesty. I want to see just how clearly and coherently I can think.

It's this big brain that has the power to make me miserable, but this big brain can also smash the illusion that I am powerless.

I am an energy field that is resisting being mined.

I'll be checking in from time to time.

Oh, and I think the hunter/gatherers of North America, long before the arrival of the disease-carrying civilized Bible-toters, were the original affluent society.

They "worked" [COUGH!] about 3 hours a day.

Most animals have more leisure than civilized man.

Why do I feel like a preacher of sorts? Why do we even bother?

Do you think that not reporting to an employer for so long has granted me access to parts of my brain that may be dormant in those always preoccupied with petty practical details?

Oh well, society is society, and while this forum represents a small segment of society, some of us may just be people who are fiercely jealous of our own time.

It is great to rest in confusion. Do I sow confusion or clarity?

Am I clearly and coherently confused? Very Happy

Maybe I ought to dive into the absurd the way whyjob does ...

Then I won't have to worry about not making sense because I will be conveying my attitude.

Debbie, I must confess to somebody who won't judge me for this: While I am far from lazy in the physical sense, I might be considered lazy since I am so content to pass days away in contemplation. Isn't this a more natural way to exist than to work everyday just to live indoors?

And, what do you know, sometimes you can even get a roof over your head without a job.

Unfortunately, those who have kids or are married will find they don't have the option to "give up trying to find gainful employment."

Fortunately I don't have children or a wife, so I am free to tell this civilization to go to Hell when it suggests I need to contribute. Please. Nobody will even notice when you drop out of the rat race.

If more people lived as I do, the rulers would tremble in fear. The National Guard would be deployed to rouse the population from their idleness.
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Debbie
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi BS - not sure I'm qualified to take confessional, but thank you for the confidence in me anyway Smile

I've been spending a little more time with my more political thoughts lately - reading about the history of immigration and worker's rights and fighting the incoming National Identity Register and ID card system here in the UK.

But 'lazy' is an interesting concept - how lazy is 'lazy'?

There is an advertisement just showing on UK TV which starts 'Too busy to breathe?' (I kid you not!) for a face cream no less. Is stopping breathing the ultimate laziness?

So much to think about

Smile
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whyjob



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wish the site were called "why job?" s



I agree, that's why I took the name whyjob. Even my signature suggests such: If not a job I work

What irritates me is the common people that suggest we are lazy if we don't hit a certain work quota. If I wanna nap, let me nap. I wasn't born under contract. or was I?

The truth is, I work more for myself and the good of everyone, than I do for the capitalist regime. It is wise to let us do nothing, in essence, we do more when we do nothing. Because by not competing, we don't strain the resources that society is based on. For every gallon of gas us 'lazy' people don't use, is one more for society to burn up in this aimlessly driven world. But I'll return to this topic some other time, time to take a nap. Very Happy
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By George, whyjob has got it!

So true, whyjob, so true.

Besides, I know some people who consider themselves lazy since they are "too lazy to read a book," and yet I have all kinds of mental energy for that stuff. I'm always reading or writing; and most of the time I'm reading over stuff I have written or taken notes from.

And I walk - God knows I walk and walk and walk. Lazy?

Hmmm.... so many contradictions.

For every gallon of gas us 'lazy' people don't use, is one more for society to burn up in this aimlessly driven world.

Yes, and for every mile we walk, our lazy bones become that much stronger. I guess I have to accept the fact that my views are not going to be widely accepted. We're supposed to feel guilty about not contributing to this aimless world of ours.

I wasn't born under contract either.
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Some people hear their inner voices with great clearness, and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy ... or they become legend. They won't be using my sperm to create an army of slaves - that's for damn sure.
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Ergasiophobic



Joined: 10 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"We're supposed to feel guilty about not contributing to this aimless world of ours."



Yes, you should feel guilty. You're slowing down the collapse of the system. Selfish bastard! Very Happy

Quote:
"I wasn't born under contract either"


I think that's what they mean by American.



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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In another thread, "2 Amerikas," someone pointed out that "mastery over time" is more important than owning a car to get to and from "work."

Quote:
The desire to better one's economic position seems to lose its force in the upside-down world south of the Rio Grande. The Indian-Mexican enjoys savoring life (with rest and leisure), and the Americans enjoys crowding it. ...But [the Mexicans] look happy. They are reposeful and contented.

Of course they are happy! That is the worst of it!

Until the Mexican-Indian wants money to buy things that money can buy more than he wants mastery over time, he will not labor consistently like the Americans, except by force.

--Helen Walker (1928) Mexicans Immigrants as Laborers, Sociology and Social Research, 13, 55-62, p. 60; quoting from an article in the Nation.

(Thanks ACA2)


Until I want money to buy things that money can buy more than I want mastery over time, I will not labor consistently like these other Americans, except by force.

Even then ... even if force is applied, as in the coming WORK CAMPS, I might consider mastering my time by forcing my captives to shoot me in the back as I'm climbing over the fence.

They can deprive us of life, but not of death.


This is all just a memory.

The work camps are comin' ... Did ya hear?
The work camps are comin' ... Did ya hear me now?
The work camps are comin' ... I know you hear.

I'll be thinking of you folks when the grids go down. Engaging in conversations here has helped me get through a life not worth living.

I don't really want anyone to try to convince me to get a job. I am curious to learn how to survive the next Stone Age (coming soon ... what, in about 10 years or so ?

Maybe that life will be worth living for some.

There will only be Eskimos left ...

The rest of us are history.

So, convince someone to invest in gainful employment. How will the rulers keep people from "partying like it's 1999" when all the lights go off?

Some party ... I don't think it will be very pleasant.

Mentally, I've already severed my attachment to this civilization and my identity in it. I'll argue with Schopenhauer in the privacy of my own mind, but I don't feel any desire to put too much time into "writing a philosophical work."

How does living in apocalyptic conditions affect our attitudes toward "being a citizen of Empire?"

Am I mentally/emotionally fit to become a poor, homeless prophet who dedicates his life to working with the poor ?

Most of us will be poor homeless prophets working with ourselves, the poor!

Oh, the IRONY!


Quote:
A Time magazine poll conducted late last year found that 61% of Christians in this country believe God wants them to be financially prosperous. Never mind the biblical root of all evil. Never mind the gospels, especially the gospel of Mark.

When three out of five self-proclaimed followers of a poor, homeless prophet who dedicated his life to working with the poor believe they are entitled to wealth, it’s no wonder you don’t hear much about the common good these days.


Jesus isn't going to be saving anyone. He'll be as hungry and as thirsty as the rest. Earth mother isn't going to be saving anyone either, except for a few thousand Eskimos ... Earth Mother loves Eskimos.

Why not just kill myself? I, like most of us, get through a life not worth living with an iron will to survive; but the will to live is not enough. I'm having an existential meltdown. Aren't we all?

How can we trust our futures? Who in their right mind is going to invest energy into a system/civilization on the verge of collapse?

How do people do it?

As long as they are employed and paying their rent, they don't have to be concerned about the coming global economic depression.

Someone told me, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

I want to relax, to think, to enjoy leisure. I don't want to chase other people's ideas of "success."

It is a sign of merit to be at odds with our civilization.

Does anyone here, from what you know about me, have any ideas as far as "things I could do for a living" to work to bring civilization down that won't give me "enemy combatant" status?

I better put an emoticon here to cover my ass else the Thought Police might take me seriously.

violent2

I wish Erg had never introduced me to that word, ineffable.

Now I'll be using this as an excuse whenever my thinking becomes muddled. I can't explain it in words.

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Some people hear their inner voices with great clearness, and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy ... or they become legend. They won't be using my sperm to create an army of slaves - that's for damn sure.


Last edited by Broken Spirit on Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:31 am; edited 2 times in total
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whatfor



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've recently discovered that I was born under contract.
I dont know what to do with this knowledge.
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:15 am    Post subject: Breaking the social contract Reply with quote

I'm afraid we all are kind of born under a social contract.

We would have to be in a "natural state" - then we would be guided by our own conscience alone.

from wiki:

Quote:
From this common starting point, the various proponents of social contract theory attempt to explain, in different ways, why it is in an individual’s rational self-interest to voluntarily give up the freedom of action one has under the natural state (their so called “natural rights”) in order to obtain the benefits provided by the formation of social structures.


Members within a society implicitly agree to the terms of the social contract by their choice to stay within the society.

I agree to be dependent upon the system by staying in my dependent condition. This means that, whenever I am ready, willing, and able to break the contract, I can - be it by living in a natural state or via suicide, I can break it.

Only You can break this contract!
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Some people hear their inner voices with great clearness, and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy ... or they become legend. They won't be using my sperm to create an army of slaves - that's for damn sure.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a wonderful thread.

How about my confession? Well, let's start here:

I am lazy, I love welfare, and I don't want a job.

Wow, I just made enemies of 99% of my fellow Americans. Ouch.... and yet, the truth is the truth. Sucks to be me? Yep, sometimes it sure does.

But not ALL the time. Nope, not even close to all the time. Every morning, when the alarm clock doesn't go off, I have to smile. When I think about how much senseless job-related shit I've avoided for yet another day, I have to smile. When I think about the few dollars a month I've taken away from the warmongers and polluters, I have to smile.

According to our society, I am a worthless piece of shit. And sometimes that sinks in and I do feel like exactly that. But not all the time. Smile
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Ro42G



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject: Things change Reply with quote

Wow, I remember when I first found why work. I was really excited and happy to share my apprehensions about wage slavery with other people. I wish the forum had a more developed strategy category, but I feel that the philosophy of this site can help other people research things on their own.

Working a job is an absolute waste of time for anybody. Unless you have a relative that can guarantee your employment and/or ownership of a company with few hassles, you are better off finding your own methods of survival. There are people that make 50K off of one deal and there is no way you can match that type of financial power by playing the wage slave sap.

I don't think people should play that game just to get a nice car or house because there is always somebody that has something better or makes more money. In a article in the New York Times, Silicon Valley millionaires still clock 10-12 hours busting their ass just so they can reach the 100 million mark and the cycle continues.

If most people are happy with material objects and wealth, that is fine with me. It is what it is in this world, but there are alternatives. Most people on this site have already used their imaginations to create viable ways of life.
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Broken Spirit



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reading material alone is quite inspiring. I'v been guided by CLAWS all along ... It is a journey.
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Fluff



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a sense just posting here is contributing to society. Maybe most of society doesn't think so, but I do.
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xog



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quite the rolling bimble, BS. I'm impressed and entertained. Although you suggest "doing" more things than I care to, even if they aren't work. ;-)

By not working a job, we may be slowing the collapse of the powers that be. Or we may not. If the work camps are coming, and I think it is likely, then we don't slow anything down any more than it will be. So it seems logical to relax and not work. Live long and prosper. :-)

It is true that by not having a job, we do not have to generate and expend and consume so much energy. The lesser amount of pollution generated at work and maintain oneself to get to and from work is sort of aesthetic and moot, considering the Mayan Calendar leaves 8 years as all that's left, if the dire interpretations of that are real. That said, I'm more green than anything. But still, why work? My 28 year old daughter, who has maxed out her credit cards, figures the end could come at any time and she doesn't want to think she didn't take/make the opportunity to live to the fullest. Being a material girl, she hinges that philosophy on matter. Minus the matter end of it, I agree with her.

But the end, doing nothing prolongating the coming of it, or anyone's vibes about my way don't seem to matter, to me. I don't want to work at a "job". That's enough reason for me not to. Don't let anyone's bad vibes get to you, whyjob. Contrary to many people's "belief", the truth is that feeling a vibe is not "having" it or being stuck with it. As soon as you sense a bad vibe, just allow it to go back, return to sender, unaccepted and unopened. It will naturally and as a matter of universal law find its way back to its point of origin, and do there whatever work was intended for you.

When computers first came out, I thought if I ignored them they would go away. Now, among other things, the computer gives me the only form of socializing I like. When or if the electric grid goes down when or if everything else goes down, then it's just me and nature again, if, in fact, I don't go down, too. That is palitable to me, either way.

When I was 27 I began traveling around the Americas by thumb, with $250 in my pocket, generally just being nice, avoiding any nastiness I saw, and immediately cutting losses rather than deal with a struggle. The constant new experiences and new choices to be made in those experiences helped me avoid the difficulties often presented by Saturn's Return that come from relying on old programmed patterns from birth on till then. Imagine my surprise when I became 30, was still traveling, realized I hadn't died yet, hadn't succeeded yet, had no idea what I wanted to "do" (meaning what career to spend my life at), and had no goals. I figured I had been getting along pretty good the way I was, good enough for me anyway, and would just kept doing it, figuring I might die soon anyway and might as well enjoy myself and my experience while I had the chance. The world has changed for the worse since then, though not all for the worse, and the same universal laws govern the way things work no matter the shape of things. Trust your spirit. It will lead you where you need to go. If you kick the bucket in the course of it, you just don't have to deal with gravity or friction anymore.
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